4/21/2006

Protests in Caledonia

The First Nations' protest in Caledonia has apparently come to a stand off. The dispute is over a land claim. Apparently, natives gave up the land in the 1840's to make way for a new highway. That agreement is now being referred to as a lease. The land was never actually given to the province, only loaned. The protest is intended to halt the construction of 250 new homes, as well as draw attention to First Nation land claim problems across the country.
I am not an Indian, so perhaps I am speaking out of ignorance. In my opinion, protests over land claims like this one are proof positive why the reserve system should never, ever have been invented. It would have been a much better plan to have assimilated native peoples, but allowed them to keep their own cultures as they saw fit. Take for example China Town in Toronto, or the various Italian, Polish, Portuguese, South Asian or whatever other communities that exist quite peacefully across our country. Would it not have been more productive, and more useful for native peoples if they were living within Canadian society, instead of outside, as they do? We wouldn't have the problem of slummish reserves (and everything that goes along with it) or land claims that we do. The land wouldn't belong to one or the other group, but to all Canadians equally.
But maybe I am naive...

26 comments:

Brian Lemon said...

The difference between the Chinese, Italian, Polish, Portuguese, and South Asians are that they don't look lovingly on living today as they did four generations ago.

Jack said...

Hindsight is better than foresight by a damned sight.

Rob C said...

If the "FIRST NATIONS" are so damned focused on their independence why are they so willing to accept all the free benifits from us dirty white guys??

Anonymous said...

The racist aboriginal protesters are using intimidation tactics to steal.

Ownership of that land was settled over a hundred years ago, but now these people see expensive houses going up on land that some of their ancestors sold and they want to cash in too.

Forget it, the protesters must be arrested for trespassing. Canadians have been threatened by these people too often. Jail.

Ruth said...

I am a little concerned about some of the racial rhetoric being posted here. Please tone it down or you will find your posts removed.

tbfe said...

Dear Ruth,

I believe that relations between Native and non-native have not been on good terms for many, many years. For the past three centuries various Native bands have signed treaties with the Crown or the federal government. The Crown/feds wanted and needed Native land, so in order to possess the land, they sought out the various Indian bands and signed treaties with them. In many cases, the treaties were understood to be an agreement to share the land. The federal government had only one intention, and that was to assimilate all Native people. For instance, one stipulation in the treaties was for school teachers to be sent to the newly-created reserves. Instead, what did the feds do? They create residential schools to further their aim of assimilation. There are numerous cases of broken promises. How do you fix a relationship that was founded on deceit and lies? I believe the plan was for complete assimilation to happen within several generations. One of the biggest issues is with the feds not even honouring their promise of reserve land. In one case, the Lubicon Band in northern Alberta is still waiting for a reserve, 107 years after Treaty 8 was signed (they were missed during treaty signing). In 1992, then PM Jean Chretien said that the Lubicon would soon get their land. Well its 2006 and they’re still waiting. The history of the relationship between Native and non-native is sad and distressing to read.


Ruth:
“In my opinion, protests over land claims like this one are proof positive why the reserve system should never, ever have been invented. It would have been a much better plan to have assimilated native peoples, but allowed them to keep their own cultures as they saw fit. Take for example China Town in Toronto, or the various Italian, Polish, Portuguese, South Asian or whatever other communities that exist quite peacefully across our country. Would it not have been more productive, and more useful for native peoples if they were living within Canadian society, instead of outside, as they do?”

You make it sound as if Native people had a choice whether to live on reserves or cities back then, when in reality Native people couldn’t even leave their reserves without a pass! The federal government invented the reserve system, and the Indian Act (1876), which sets out how to control reserves and Native people’s lives. It is not that Native people like living in 3rd world conditions, but that in most cases their whole families live on one reserve, and when moving to the cities they get no support from their band or the federal government. I believe the federal government has to become involved in the dispute mainly because “Indians” fall under the federal government’s jurisdiction as set out in the Indian Act.

Ruth said...

I believe that relations between Native and non-native have not been on good terms for many, many years
Agreed.

You make it sound as if Native people had a choice whether to live on reserves or cities back then, when in reality Native people couldn’t even leave their reserves without a pass! The federal government invented the reserve system, and the Indian Act (1876), which sets out how to control reserves and Native people’s lives.
It was certainly not the intent of my post to say that the current situation is solely the fauly of Natives. Far from it. The Federal government should never, ever have conceived of the reservation system.

when moving to the cities they get no support from their band or the federal government
So?
I don't get any support from the government.

Anonymous said...

I understand your desire to maintain a civil conversation about this issue but 'radical'? Ruth, you may change your opinion after familiarizing yourself with some native-run newspapers paid for by taxpayers. Believe me, the words 'radical' and 'racist' certainly do apply there.

I am at a loss to understand why these 'protesters' are exempt from the law? Putting aside their land grab claims, they had an opportunity to make their case through well-paid lawyers in court recently. About a month ago, the judge ruled that their protest was illegal. Why has the law enforcement community allowed them to break the law for the past month?

Why is the government even bothering to negotiate with them until they show some respect for the process and obey the law?

All of this rhetoric about special status and exemptions is ridiculous. We are all immigrants to this great country and (as anthropologists will tell you) that includes natives. No one deserves special status.

Regardless, not one of the protesters was around in 1784. The current members of the mob has not been disadvantaged by historic agreements. Successive governments have poured billions and billions of dollars into reserves and native programs....perhaps not with exceptional results but with good intent. Band mismanagement is more to blame for the failure than malintent. Land was paid for during the original agreements and has been paid hundreds of times over by taxpayers like us. Enough is enough.

Last but not least, let's please refrain from use silly inflammatory phrases like '3rd world conditions'. It is an insult and disservice to those poeple in the 3rd world. THere is no underdeveloped country in the world that transfers the tens of billions of dollars a year to their people...most of it without any accountability.

Ruth said...

I understand your desire to maintain a civil conversation about this issue but 'radical'?

I think I used the word racial, not radical.
<goes back to look>
Yep. I did say racial.

Last but not least, let's please refrain from use silly inflammatory phrases like '3rd world conditions'. It is an insult and disservice to those poeple in the 3rd world. THere is no underdeveloped country in the world that transfers the tens of billions of dollars a year to their people...most of it without any accountability.
I don't suppose you've ever been to a reserve?
Also, there are nations who do receive billions of dollars a year in aid from other nations. Most of Africa comes to mind.

Anonymous said...

To answer your question, I've visited many native reserves dozens of times in 4 provinces and lived next to one for most of my adult life. They all have one thing in common...gluttony and waste...as evidenced by torched homes, abandoned cars, rusty snowmobiles and ATV's, etc. Too much unearned money provides little reason to respect what it can provide.

I also have been fortunate enough to visit Ethiopia once in my life. Strangely, despite, your comparison, the conditions and the attitudes were remarkably different.

tbfe said...

Anonymous:
"Why is the government even bothering to negotiate with them until they show some respect for the process and obey the law?"

Well obviously you missed my posting about the Lubicon. Dragging things through the courts should not be the way to deal with land claims. History is not black and white. I would say that the majority of land claims do have a valid argument.
However I do not think that the protesters are going about it the right way, violence won't solve anything, but I don't know enough about the individual claim to say more. I heard on the news that they had a claim in the courts in 1999, but nothing further was said.

Anonymous:
"All of this rhetoric about special status and exemptions is ridiculous. We are all immigrants to this great country and (as anthropologists will tell you) that includes natives. No one deserves special status."

We may all be immigrants to this great country, but no one came along and moved you onto reserves. The "special status" results from the federal government’s Indian Act, not because Natives want special status.


Anonymous:
"Regardless, not one of the protesters was around in 1784. The current members of the mob has not been disadvantaged by historic agreements. Successive governments have poured billions and billions of dollars into reserves and native programs....perhaps not with exceptional results but with good intent. Band mismanagement is more to blame for the failure than malintent. Land was paid for during the original agreements and has been paid hundreds of times over by taxpayers like us. Enough is enough"


I don't know how you can state that historic agreements do not affect the individuals alive today! It is because of the reserve system and the Indian Act that Native people are in the position they are in today. Native people don't even own their own land, can't even mortgage their house, etc. How is funding to reserves any different than funding municipalities?? Obviously more money is spent funding reserves, cause the band council can't tax their residents, and many reserves are in remote locations and have high unemployment rate, not because Natives are lazy and don't want to work, there is no work!


Anonymous:
"To answer your question, I've visited many native reserves dozens of times in 4 provinces and lived next to one for most of my adult life. They all have one thing in common...gluttony and waste...as evidenced by torched homes, abandoned cars, rusty snowmobiles and ATV's, etc. Too much unearned money provides little reason to respect what it can provide."

Native people don't own their land, houses, etc. Do you think that’s their choice? No, it’s the federal governments! It's the federal governments paternalistic attitude of killing us with good intentions that has many native reserves in this situation today. Most Canadians take for granted that they can get a mortgage for a house, why put money into a house that’s not yours and can be arbitrarily taken away from you by band council if they so chose?

Also Ruth made a good post about all the money that is transferred to 3rd world countries, illustrating that throwing money will not solve the problems. I didn't say every reserve has appalling conditions, far from it, but the fact is they do exist.

Ruth:
"So?
I don't get any support from the government."

Well if you want Natives to abandon reserves (not that you do) then they need some form of support. It's hard to move a family of 6 to a new city, find work and a place to live, with little or no family support, which is common on many reserves. I'm just saying it’s not that easy. And, I didn’t even talk of the possibly inferior level of educational prospects for reserve residents.

Ruth said...

Well if you want Natives to abandon reserves (not that you do) then they need some form of support. It's hard to move a family of 6 to a new city, find work and a place to live...

Why do they need support to do this? I come from a family of 8, and I spent a significant portion of my teenage life moving every year or every other year on account of my father's line of work. He had his own business, and rather than spend too much time away from the family in our formative years, it was decided we would move around with him.
It's true, it's not easy. But it's also not that difficult. Mindset is everything. This is the chief problem that I see with the reserve system. It creates a dependence on the government that I view as being unhealthy. It's much better to learn to do things on your own, without help.

Anonymous said...

You haven't provided any rationale to support the statement that the majority of land claims are valid. If only a small percentage of the outrageous land claims were granted, we would cease to exist as a country. At present, the total of all land claims made by native bands in Canada is approximately 150% of the country's entire land mass. Tell me, if you believe, the majority of claims are valid, how is that supposed to work?

The theme of your post seems to be choice....or lack of it. What about the choice to leave the reserve? Ruth makes a good point here. It is difficult for all of us to make a fresh start away from our family...but we do it because we don't have a choice...the majority of the time without any support. You mention families of 6 or 8 having a tough time, but then again, that is choice, isn't it. My wife and I wanted to be parents in the worst way, but we did not feel it was responsible bringing children into the world until we were certain that they could be supported emotionally and financially. I would have loved to have 6 kids...but it wasn't realistic. With choice comes reponsibility.

You mention that most Canadians take for granted that they can get a mortgage. You make the word 'mortgage' sound like a winning lottery ticket. Mortgage is debt. Most Canadians have to endure years of crushing debt to pay for their homes while at the same time working hard to provide the funds so that reserve residents get their homes for free.

Let's not forget other amenities like income support, infrastructure, cultural and language support to mention only a few. If appalling conditions exist, it is more likely the fault of band council mismanagement.

You also raised the subject of education without acknowledging free post-secondary education, food & lodging support, free books & resources and a monthly living allowance.

Maybe that's why the summer job programme that I managed several years ago also failed to attract students from the nearby reserve. This was despite targeted advertising and 20% of the positions being offered first to natives (we hired all that applied and never filled the full allocation). Sorry, but my experience was that the native students were lazy and did not want to work, perhaps because they didn't need the money as the other students did. I remember a band council member telling me that I needed to buy a different watch because they were on "Indian time" which meant that they might show up when they rolled out of bed, and left when they didn't feel like working anymore.

Sorry, I am really tired of being accused of doing so little in the face of significant efforts and sacrifices when as a people, you have done so little for yourselves.

tbfe said...

Ruth:
"Why do they need support to do this? I come from a family of 8, and I spent a significant portion of my teenage life moving every year or every other year on account of my father's line of work. He had his own business, and rather than spend too much time away from the family in our formative years, it was decided we would move around with him.
It's true, it's not easy. But it's also not that difficult. Mindset is everything. This is the chief problem that I see with the reserve system. It creates a dependence on the government that I view as being unhealthy. It's much better to learn to do things on your own, without help."

Most if not all receive no support when they move to the cities. Immigrants get more support than Native people do. If you don't have the education to get a good job then how do you properly support ur family? Sure anyone could get a job at McDonalds, but that doesn't pay the bills.
Of course the reserve system is unhealthy, but you can't expect people to abandon whats been their home for well over a hundred years in most cases. The solution isn't to abandon reserves, but to create opportunities on reserves for employment and self sufficiency. Obviously thats easier said than done. Native bands need to be able to own their own land, tax their people, and do whatever other municipalities are able to do. Of course Native bands want to prosper and be self-sufficient, but they're set-up to fail. Most of the reserves that are better off are close to urban areas, where they have access to employment, it's the remote reserves that have the most problems, especially when you consider a 4L milk can cost $16!!! The reserve system and the whole Indian bureacracy is a joke! I don't have all the answers, but I do know that the current system doesn't work.

tbfe said...

Anonymous, when I say the majority I mean something along the lines of 55% might have a claim. I didn’t say they all did, but if they didn’t why have so many claims been upheld? Why did the federal government sign the Nunavut agreement, or the Delgamuukw agreement?

And using the 150% is misleading, as some claims overlap each other. I’d like to see where you got that stat from.

I know that a mortgage isn’t like winning the lottery, I’m not stupid. The fact that Native people don’t have that choice is sad.

Anonymous:
“Let's not forget other amenities like income support, infrastructure, cultural and language support to mention only a few. If appalling conditions exist, it is more likely the fault of band council mismanagement.”

Band council can’t be solely blamed, sure there’s bad apples everywhere, but how else are they supposed to generate revenue is what I’m trying to say. I’m saying that Indian bands should be treated like municipalities and have the ability to tax their residents and what everyone else takes for granted. What are reserves other than little towns or hamlets? Why are they under a completely different set of rules? How do they operate under these other rules?

Anonymous:
“You also raised the subject of education without acknowledging free post-secondary education, food & lodging support, free books & resources and a monthly living allowance.”

Well you can only get that money if you’re a status treaty Indian going to post secondary, and you don’t get free food, books or lodging, you get tuition and a living allowance. I believe this stems from the treaties.

Anonymous:
“Sorry, but my experience was that the native students were lazy and did not want to work, perhaps because they didn't need the money as the other students did.”

Oh, so because of this one experience all Native students must be lazy. Geez, no wonder everyone thinks we’re lazy drunks. Many of the other Native students I attended university with did not get tuition or a living allowance for one reason or another, and most had part time jobs and student loans to get their education. Native people aren’t all that different from everyone else, I don’t know why we’re always portrayed that way, but now I know where the stereotype comes from.

Anonymous:
“Sorry, I am really tired of being accused of doing so little in the face of significant efforts and sacrifices when as a people, you have done so little for yourselves.”

No one accused you of doing anything. How you can make that final statement is beyond me. I don’t even know how to respond to that, as it is extremely insulting. It’s a ludicrous and unintelligent comment, and I won’t reply to it.

Anonymous said...

to tbfe:
My comments have not been made based on one experience but a lifetime of living and working near a reserve and visiting many others. I simply provided an example. I could list several more but I didn't think it was necessary to 'pile on' nor did I think that Ruth would appreciate a lengthy list in her blog.

I understand that support for post-secondary education can vary band to band. However, some do provide food, books and lodging. A close family friend received tuition; her on-campus food and lodging was paid, she was reimbursed for her books and laptop; and she received a $500/month living allowance that she used partly for a new car payment.

I have no difficulty viewing reserves as small towns or hamlets. I agree that they should be treated as other municipalities with the ability to tax their residents....and should live under the same rules as other towns. This of course would include residents giving up all tax-exempt status and the federal government ending its transfer of $10 billion a year to reserves.

All of this discussion is a convenient diversion to blur the terrorist-like actions of the native bands in Caledonia, Napanee and Cornwall. Their actions should be treated accordingly.

In closing, I will not be baited into a name calling contest by following your lead questioning my intelligence. I do believe that we can all learn new things. Perhaps even you could learn something from a very intelligent and passionate post to Jesse Gritter's blog by Anon 4:48pm (with aboriginal background).

http://jessegritter.blogspot.com/2006/04/i-dont-feel-sorry-for-them.html

Before you ask or make an accusation about the other Anon messages, I have not posted to Jesse Gritter's blog.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:
“In closing, I will not be baited into a name calling contest by following your lead questioning my intelligence. I do believe that we can all learn new things. Perhaps even you could learn something from a very intelligent and passionate post to Jesse Gritter's blog by Anon 4:48pm (with aboriginal background).”


I did not question your intelligence, I objected to the intelligence of your comment(s).

Anonymous:
“I understand that support for post-secondary education can vary band to band. However, some do provide food, books and lodging. A close family friend received tuition; her on-campus food and lodging was paid, she was reimbursed for her books and laptop; and she received a $500/month living allowance that she used partly for a new car payment.”

Yes but she’s most likely in the minority, and it is all taxable. Besides, it’s better she has the university education, because now for the next 40+ years she’ll be paying taxes.

Anonymous:
“I have no difficulty viewing reserves as small towns or hamlets. I agree that they should be treated as other municipalities with the ability to tax their residents....and should live under the same rules as other towns. This of course would include residents giving up all tax-exempt status and the federal government ending its transfer of $10 billion a year to reserves.”

Well then we agree on something. The point I’m making is that Native people living on reserves don’t have these options (mortgage, etc.). The tax-exempt status would go the way of the dinosaur along with the Indian Act, and bands could collect taxes. The amount of money going towards reserves wouldn’t change significantly (and while the figure is 8 billion, the amount is lessened once the department of Indian Affairs is done with it). The fact remains that Native people have different standards applied to them than others, yet are expected to do just as well under different circumstances.

Anonymous:
“All of this discussion is a convenient diversion to blur the terrorist-like actions of the native bands in Caledonia, Napanee and Cornwall. Their actions should be treated accordingly.”

I agree, but “terrorist like” is a little strong isn’t it? Native people have never used terrorist tactics. What I object to is how the government handles the situation. The dialogue with the feds should have been happening a very long time ago, before the situation in Caledonia escalated with OPP/RCMP involvement. I think the actions in Caledonia reflect badly upon Native people in general, whether that is warranted or not (probably not).

I’ll read that blog you mentioned later, but my Oilers are playing now so I’m real busy!

Anonymous said...

Terrorist-like actions...

well......

sorry to have to agree....

Manipulation of government by "ANXIETY or VIOLENCE" causing methods to innocents, such as Caledonia...is TERRORISM.

I don't care what your causes are. Blocking a main highway, taking over a housing development days before new homeownders are to move in, looting the main office of computers and paperwork, breaking into almost completed houses to have "our elders just sit in for the evening" is criminal and not acceptable.

The problem with acknowledging this type of behavious is that it will never end...and they all admit it.
If you get what you want by doing an action, you will do it again.
We don't negotiate with hostage takers because...then it gives criminals a reason to take hostages!!!

My aboriginal ancestors are embarrassed in their graves by the radicals in Caledonia and elsewhere, ruining our good reputation and relations with our neighbours and making the world either look at us like poor hard done by savages or hardened criminals. Any progress made in such a manner is on the backs of the ones that obey law and are respectable...to high a cost.


Read the end part of this definition.
United Nations
While the United Nations has not yet accepted a definition of terrorism [1], the UN's "academic consensus definition," written by terrorism expert A.P. Schmid and widely used by social scientists, runs:
Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby — in contrast to assassination — the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought," (Schmid, 1988). [2]

Anonymous said...

I am non native..living all my life near the reserve. After reading some of this I can only say "IGNORANCE IS BLISS". Read your history books before insipid comments are made about the Natives. These Land Claims are between the Natives & the Federal Government. Not the people of Caledonia. Have some of the writers driven tru the Six Nations Reserve lately? (for the expection of tax free cigaretts and gas)! This is their land 6 miles either side of the Grand River and believe me some are more education than non natives. I see Cadilac Escapes, Beautiful new homes, ( no slums here) clean schools, fanstatic Sports Complex. Yes Ignorance is Bliss..They are not terrosist..taking hostages??The natives have been hostages on their own land for the last 200 years.
This was THEIR LAND FIRST, THE WHITE MAN,OUR ANCESTORS, TRIED TO TAKE AWAY THEIR CULTURE, SEPERATED THEM FROM "THEIR PARENTS" (sound familiar) AND PUT THEM IN THE "WHITE MAN'S SCHOOL" (we all know if the abuses that went on in those places). LAND AGREEMENTS where made with the Soverign Government (The Queen (Victoria))but the non natives did not honor these agreements and now that those "Dumb Natives" have Educated themselves. People with no knowledge of the Native History inply that these natives are, greedy!dirty!should be grateful!GRATEFUL FOR WHAT? That are ancestors dumped them all on a stretch of land called the Reservation! oH !I forgot the "FREE Tax Property Tax Part" Hello! knock, knock..now that is the million dollar answer, or should I say billion. IF THE GOVERNMENT GIVES THE NATIVES BACK THEIR LAND AS ORIGINALLY AGREED (LAND THAT THE NATIVES CAN DEVELOP)
The Government loses all this Tax Money. And I believe that is the bottom line. MONEY! Greed the root of all evil!
We Canadians live in Democratic Society and are all allowed freedom of speech,freedom to express our opinions but we shouldn't pass judgement when you dont know what both sides of the story. The Natives JUST want a PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO WHAT WAS PROMISED TO THEM. (If the government leased your land and promised to give you a % of the taxes over the term of lease, plus, return your yard when lease expired, would you not want them (government) to honor that agreement. I think so! While you continue slandering the Natives, give that some thought! EAH white friend of the Natives

Anonymous said...

I find it absolutely disgraceful that the provincial government has allowed this to continue to this point.
The double standards that exist in these recent native protest situations are unbelievable.
This is now into its third month with virtually NO ACTION on the part of the government.
Are there 2 criminal codes that exist in this province???
At the least, yesterday we saw native protesters destroy public property, DIG UP A taxpayer paid for highway in full view of the police!! who didnt so much as twitch and then commit arson at a hydro station leaving tens of thousands of people without power!!
And the government has to ASK PERMISSION to allow firefighters and hydro repair crews in??????
The natives have made an entire innocent community their political pawns and are literally keeping people prisoner in their own town!!
And now, they think they have the right to deprive them of power so they cant even function??
What the hell in going on in this province??
This has now gone beyond the point of any reason.
If protesters were to erect barricades across the QEW, Hwy's 401 and 400 and cut off the residents of Toronto would that be acceptable to the premier too??

Anonymous said...

Why was the Man from Glad sent in as a negotiator?

I guess he didnt offer the natives enough free boxes of Kitchen Catchers to appease them.

Anonymous said...

My family has lived in the Dominion of Canada for over 200 years.
When do I become native?
When do the spoils of war all revert back to their "rightful owner"?
When do the Mexicans get Texas back,as they are the "aboriginals".
Does France want The Louisiana purchase back?
Maybe they want a mulligan on that one.
I beleive Russia would like to have Alaska back.Let's call the Cremlin and see if they want a "do over"
Natives have made many bad deals for hundreds of years.
GET OVER IT YOU LOSE

Anonymous said...

The Romans just called.....

They want Europe, North Africa, the Middle East and Britain back.

Anonymous said...

A long time ago in Europe they killed off the enemy then took over the country. ( there still doing this in the Middle East, Afganistan and Africa) we have all seen what mass destruction these has created. So, if you dont know what your talking about read some history books. The Natives just called and they are taking back what was Stolen from them.

Anonymous said...

Yeah,
And the Romans had their "land" "stolen" from them too!
Just like the Greeks, the Carthaginians, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Mongols, the Crusaders, the Ottomons, the Prussians, and so on and so forth back to the beginning of recorded time.
Your exact argument is what is being used right now by Osama Bin Laden and his followers who beleive that because Muslims (ie the Ottomon Empire) once controlled nearly half of Europe and Asia for about 400 years that they deserve it ALL BACK TOO and want to install a Kalif (or Sultan if you will) to preside over the new world order. They are taking it one step further and demanding that anyone standing in their way (ie the western democracies) be made to convert to Islam or die.
That "it was once ours" jingo is a tired and irrelevant argument.
Do you honestly think you would be better off today running around in G-strings and following roaming wild game with the odd scalp taking from your other "first nations" cousins to pass the boredom from time to time??
Long before the Europeans ever arrived you and yours were killing and "stealing" from one another as you put it. Shouldnt you be settling those claims before you even think about any from 200 years ago???

Ruth said...

Other post on same topic
Ok folks. I am going to close up this discussion. If you have anything else to say, please follow the link and post your comments there. I'd like to keep things collected if I can.

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